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Math in EPUB Meeting Notes 3 16 17
- Charles LaPierre
- George Kerscher
- Neil Soiffer
- Jason White
- Sina Bahram
- Avneesh Singh
George: notes?
Jason: Git Repo has this.
Neil: Here is the GitHub Note where we put our notes for the day.
Charles: So my understanding is that we want two options available to Publishers
- where they can remove the Javascript and the default behavior will be an Image with Alt text describing the math with MathML either completely removed, hidden, or commented out
- when JavaScript is allowed, the JavaScript will determine what is the best course of action (maybe by Reading system that we have tested with?) and make either the image+alt the primary and MathML hidden visually but available to AT, or make the MathML the primary and have the Image with alt texted removed so as to prevent possible double speech.
Sina: similar to a polyfill, certain platforms that do things and do things with JS depending on what it can sniff out can do changes. Classic polyfill
Neil: but what about systems without JS support
Sina: that is only true if the graceful degradation. Three concepts
- graceful degradation
- progressive enhancement
- (sorry missed the 3rd option)
Neil: problem was fallback doesn’t work gracefully in some reading systems. doesn’t understand the aria attribute.
Sina: can we map out a list of some of the possibilities with 2 possibilities we get 4 options. can we figure it out if some of them don’t apply, for all that support JS the support ARIA (if we can say that.)
George: can we discuss the example?
Sina: I think we should we talk about that list before an example.
Charles: Yes
Charles: Here is a link to the Google Sheets we created
Jason: code in JS that determine what reading system whether to remove the alt image or remove the mathML content. that will take a lot of evaluating what can be established what can be… depends on what some of the systems it will work on.. this is the only difficulty
Sina: in which all 3 = yes is fine is that correct?
Jason: Yes that sounds good
Sina: since it doesn’t depend on MathML
Neil: Bug in NVDA ignore ARIA hidden in span bugs?
Jason: its on image for that bug.
Sina: No we won’t fix AT bugs, but bring these bugs to their attention.
George: we can alert them to it.
Sina: is it tracked in bugzilla
Neil: I think so but will check.
Sina: we default the mathML aria hidden is true in instances with MathML is available, I don’t know of a system that supports mathML that doesn’t support JS. Practical if it supports ML then it supports JS. if that is true then if JS is support and JS. ARIA hidden on mathML will revise this as we go around it. with JS we can remove it, and when JS is not available then ML wouldn’t be supported.
Neil: what about Display None with old reading systems?
Sina: no support for JS, ARIA, MathML css support?
Neil: Kindle
Charles: the Publisher might strip the JS and MathML at the same time
Sina: Publishers will make a separate version and can remove the MathML and JS.
Jason: they are not relevant to this discussion then. is there any system that don’t support all of this and no CSS?
Sina we are still giving them an image with alt text.
George: and as a month ago Kindle supports Alt in their pipeline if the alt is in the EPUB and images. Peter Korn told me personally.
Neil: mathML visual rendering, if MathML is present and spoken but no displayed then we have a problem. Then it won’t respect the ARIA hidden. JS support I can remove it from the DOM, then you remove the display.
Sina: we really have to explain and test why this will work.
Charles, Lucifox did allow for rendering the offscreen model of mathml
Sina: CSS fallbacks there are ways to do this.
Jason: there is a point where they will use the mathML rendering
Neil: TextHelp does this mathJax re-render it and highlight
Sina: I don’t think web is in scope for this. This solution is designed barrier to entry the alt or mathML being available to raining blind/low vision solutions that will use this kind of pipeline.
Jason: its not that much extra work to render the mathML
Sina: I disagree. Publishers care about the rendering, we may remove add a visual element that the publisher will care about it
Neil: if the reading system could handle the mathML there could be a small amount of script to deal with this.
Sina: True.
George: WG charter is being drafted and hitting the W3C and years before the web publication spec will be out, and we want a solution that includes the SVG and mathML and enable us and when we have Service work the package up the mathML for offline as well.
Jason: question: we have several cases where JS has to make a decision that it has to change the DOM, can we determine what case we are in to make that decision?
Sina: I am about 50% confident that some of these can be determined. JS responsive design.
George: are we checking for Is VO/ JAWS NVDA etc running?
Sina: No we are not that breaks sandboxing, you can do it on mobile on native apps.
Neil: what about SVG images?
Sina: you can switch on the fly between SVG and PNG via JS. If the css for the book wasn’t written larger object etc…
George: we may be able to use the PNG fallback
Avneesh: why sVG? We can recommend SVG in the techniques for low vision but we won’t make it compulsory.
Jason: SVG will mean ARIA/JS compliant
Sina: I am not sure if SVG and JS are together…
Avnesh JS may be blocked for security reasons, but SVG won’t be blocked.
Sina: OH thats right, so in that case, the other table row, yes to aria and mathML
Sina: answer are we ok for working that mathML is not visible. clipping rec. is obeyed with CSS
Jason: that is different than Display None. SR accessing DOM directly via api clipping rec vs display none?
Sina: display none elements from dom and JS will also remove from DOM, not the clipping.
George: Is what was sent around is that what we will use?
Sina: 80% we need to change some attributes and add the JS.
George: group of EPUB readers that are Web based and SDK based and most don’t support JS. So the example with Jason sent around so that will be the recommendation to publishers and the JS code recommended knowing that JS will be removed some of the time and that example would be recommended?
Jason: No, we will be reworking the example…
George: Why NOT?
Sina: once it is re-worked, that will be the example we rework, Aria Hidden, alt, display none, etc.. we need to test it and figure out if we need any other attributes, alt on mathML, spans etc…
Neil: did we decide if JS can determine if ARIA is working?
Sina: Aria Hidden is present and I don’t think JS will have insight into that tree.
Charles: Sorry, time is up and another call is coming in, so I will send around these notes and schedule a follow up meeting.
Everyone: agreed that this is looking very promising and no one had any major issues that we think can't be resolved.
Sina: that is a straight up bug. the burden for us is to tell them. double speak then that publisher
Charles: my default alt text “”
Sina: if mathML is not present we remove the MathML which then we don’t need to worry about the ARIA hidden bug at all and there won’t be any potential weird characters on systems which do not support the MathML and also behave badly if there is MathML on the page at all.